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Today's Topics:
1. Re: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual (Dirk Laurie)
2. Re: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual (Egor Skriptunoff)
3. Re[2]: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual (John Hind)
4. Re: Re[2]: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual (Coda Highland)
5. Re: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual (nobody)
6. Re: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual (Martin)
7. Yet another user confused by the *program* exporting symbols
(was Re: Symbol not found error using embedded Lua interpreter in
Rust) (Jay Carlson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 16:39:22 +0200
From: Dirk Laurie <dirk.laurie@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual
To: Lua mailing list <lua-l@lists.lua.org>
Message-ID:
<CABcj=tkuPBhm3JcDwdJnqOgWRHhjJEt2=6RarNti4EN0g3gKjg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
2017-06-23 12:41 GMT+02:00 John Hind <john.hind@zen.co.uk>:
I notice that Lua 5.3 Reference Manual has been extensively edited
over the
last few point releases, but one aspect that is still not very well
described is NaN. There are three references to it, all tangential.
Two
state that it is not a valid table key while the third describes its
treatment by comparison operators. The thing itself is never properly
introduced.
NaN is an IEEE-754 subtlety and no more worthy of elaboration in
the Lua manual than a discussion of why n*(1/n)==1 might for some
values of n be false. The properties mentioned in the manual are
precisely the ways in which it impinges on essential Lua issues.
It does fall within the scope of an auxiliary glossary [1] for careful
readers,
and there I wrote the following:
NaN
---
Acronym for "Not A Number". An exceptional value of type [number] (also
written 'NAN' and 'nan'), which arises as the result of an undefinable
arithmetic [operation]. NaN is not a Lua keyword, but appears in
output (in some implementations, even the nonsensical '-nan' may
be printed). If you need the notation NaN, assign such
a value to the name.
NaN is not a legal [key] in a table, but counts as [true](truth).
NaN = 0/0
NaN + 1 -- NaN. All arithmetic operations involving NaN have
-- result NaN.
NaN <= NaN -- false. All comparison operations involving NaN
have
-- result false except the following.
NaN ~= NaN -- true. The only Lua value with this property.
[1] https://rawgit.com/dlaurie/lua-notes/master/glossary.html
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 18:15:26 +0300
From: Egor Skriptunoff <egor.skriptunoff@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual
To: John Hind <john.hind@zen.co.uk>, Lua mailing list
<lua-l@lists.lua.org>
Message-ID:
<CAPweGw6V=d4DYZzTLEx-G6iuP0BXMUCrKQgE95axpjRSv+pKwg@mail.gmail.com>
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 17:04:07 +0000
From: "John Hind" <john.hind@zen.co.uk>
Subject: Re[2]: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual
To: "Egor Skriptunoff" <egor.skriptunoff@gmail.com>, "Lua mailing
list" <lua-l@lists.lua.org>
Message-ID: <em89f516ee-d98d-4b1a-988b-bade02519329@cruncher>
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 12:28:27 -0500
From: Coda Highland <chighland@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual
To: John Hind <john.hind@zen.co.uk>, Lua mailing list
<lua-l@lists.lua.org>
Message-ID:
<CAFE_sBFLOr-QDE4Do_PKrOYC4A2urgv8KAU8PJfpwOPhBhLRZg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:04 PM, John Hind <john.hind@zen.co.uk>
wrote:
In this case, I would reference IEEE 754 when 'float number' type is
first
introduced in section 2.1. I would then remove the reference to NaN
from
section 3.4.4. That leaves the issue of NaN not being a valid table
key. Why
not given it is a unique bit pattern in the IEEE 754 code space? But
if it
is necessary to specifically exclude it, I would refer to it as "the
float
number value NaN", or "the IEEE 754 value NaN".
Presumably IEEE 754 positive and negative infinity ARE valid table
keys,
since they are not specifically excluded? What about positive and
negative
zero? Would these be distinguished table keys?
The problem I had reading section 2.1 is that it implies 'NaN' is
something
like 'nil' (which as already been introduced) and never explains that
it is
actually a specific value of the float subtype of the number type.
It actually DOESN'T have a unique bit pattern in IEEE-754. All
IEEE-754 numbers with an exponent of all 1's is a NaN, and in fact
some VMs (including LuaJIT) exploit this fact to pack 52 bits of
useful information into the mantissa instead of storing it externally.
The reason section 2.1 doesn't mention IEEE-754 is because the Lua
reference interpreter doesn't rely strictly on IEEE-754 semantics
(notwithstanding the expected behavior of NaN) and it will compile and
run just fine on platforms that use other floating-point
representations (this is mentioned in 3.4.1).
I'm pretty sure you're right that positive and negative infinities are
distinct table keys. I don't think positive and negative zeroes are
because they compare equal to each other in all contexts.
As for referring to it as "the float number value NaN" in section 2.1
-- it already does. The parenthetical note right there calls out that
it is a special value used as a numerical result.
As for removing it from 3.4.4... Why? This definition is actually
required BECAUSE Lua doesn't require that the underlying platform
supports IEEE-754 semantics, but the language guarantees these
semantics anyway. (Also, there are other languages that use IEEE-754
floating point math that give NaN a well-defined comparison value in
order to provide a well-ordering property over the set of all possible
values.)
/s/ Adam
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 19:31:32 +0200
From: nobody <nobody+lua-list@afra-berlin.de>
Subject: Re: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual
To: lua-l@lists.lua.org
Message-ID: <a254dc17-900c-1495-3634-c834ca5f80ae@afra-berlin.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 2017-06-23 19:04, John Hind wrote:
Why not given it is a unique bit pattern in the IEEE 754 code space?
It's not, it's **tons** of different patterns.
Which is precisely why it's a problem: As float, NaN ~= NaN by
definition. While reinterpreting the bits as int _usually_ (for NaNs
generated by the FPU) gives the same integers, it's not guaranteed to.
Which means no matter how you compare, it may be that NaN ~= NaN, which
makes recalling things from a hash table kinda awkward.
-- nobody
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 21:17:29 -0700
From: Martin <eden_martin_fuhrspam@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: NaN in Lua 5.3 Reference Manual
To: John Hind <john.hind@zen.co.uk>, Lua mailing list
<lua-l@lists.lua.org>
Message-ID: <6bb67377-a921-2db2-fb5a-2082f45277d3@gmx.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 06/23/2017 10:04 AM, John Hind wrote:
[...] What about positive and
negative zero? Would these be distinguished table keys?
With positive and negative float zeros is funny thing: you can't (I
don't know how) distinguish negative float zero (-0.0) from positive
float zero (0.0). Usually we detect negative number by comparing it
with
0, which is not applicable here.
But in tables both three zeros as key maps to integer zero:
Lua 5.3.3 Copyright (C) 1994-2016 Lua.org, PUC-Rio
> t = {[0] = '0', [0.0] = '0.0', [-0.0] = '-0.0'}
> for k, v in pairs(t) do print(math.type(k), k, v) end
integer 0 -0.0
-- Martin
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 18:46:23 +0000
From: Jay Carlson <nop@nop.com>
Subject: Yet another user confused by the *program* exporting symbols
(was Re: Symbol not found error using embedded Lua interpreter in
Rust)
To: Lua mailing list <lua-l@lists.lua.org>
Message-ID:
<CAJgdgDcq=7xCc+cqLOtxx_DonUwLpUU9N3ddzG6OZsDnst1-2w@mail.gmail.com>
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End of lua-l Digest, Vol 83, Issue 47
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