Re: Proposal: Proposals are the wrong approach [prose and long]

[Dirk Laurie <dirk.laurie@...>]

2014-05-03 19:31 GMT+02:00 Andrew Starks <andrew.starks@trms.com>:

> I'm not the list's moderator or culture police. These are my thoughts
> offered up as advice from someone who was has proposed changes to Lua (even
> when I wasn't actually using it for anything) and learned that life was
> frustrating when I did so.
>
> If I'm wrong or out of line, I can handle it and won't be offended if told
> so, even off list.
>
> Short version:
>
> Because Lua is not openly developed, "proposals" should be rare. When we
> feel compelled to offer one, we should seek alternatives, such as an example
> of something you are trying to do that is hard to get done in Lua (maybe why
> you are using Lua to solve this problem) and the value of a solution. (what
> your life would look like if it were easier)
>
> Narrative:
>
> If you are inclined to spark a conversation about "what would be cool," then
> you can expect a debate about a theoretical universe that does not exist,
> probably led by an opposing point of view. Those can be fun, sometimes; like
> arguing about rock and roll and whether or not Rush should be in the Hall of
> Fame.
>
> They are not fun when we believe that the outcome of these fantasies have
> weight. Then we defend them and display all of the behavior that is so easy
> to fall into when we argue, made worse by the fact that we are not sitting
> next to each other, IRL.
...
> All of this does not suggest that new ideas don't come from new people.
> Instead, it's about operating within the unique culture of Lua, being
> effective and being heard. It's also about showing courtesy and respect to
> those that have likely heard it all before.

Wow! You have been on this list only since March last year and you have
reached a position of wisdom that most of us take three years to attain.

I fully agree with everything that you say. Which makes it doubly sad that
this post of yours will not change the culture of the list one whit.

Let me explain. The new ideas, vehemently defended, come from newbies:
Lua newbies, mind, not programming newbies. Those people know a lot.
In particular, they usually know and love some other programming language
well: Python, Ruby, Javascript, C++, Ada etc.

They have often read the manual thoroughly, maybe even PiL. But they do
not spend their idle afternoons browsing back postings to the list or surfing
lua-users.org. The ons that join tomorrow won't even see your post.

On Usenet, the typical group has a re-post of its FAQ and list etiquette once
a month. This helps. Anybody who sticks it out for that long sees it.

Here is a suggestion. Make a short and snappy version of your post, give
it a title like

[FAQ] What is good Lua-L etiquette?

and instruct your computer to post it automatically once a month. Then
it should eventually have some impact.