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- Subject: Re: Justify introducing Lua at my workplace?
- From: Stefan Sandberg <keffo.sandberg@...>
- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:57:01 +0100
Don Hopkins wrote:
No. Because in HTML you never have >>>>> that is illegal whereas ))))
is legal in Lisp, unless you get the number of them wrong. The
comparison is invalid.
languages, so what's wrong with that? The comparison is not invalid.
XML requires twice as many angled brackets as Lisp requires
parenthesis, to express the same structure.
Yeah, and Larry Craig is not gay, or so he says, again and again. Of
course my comments were a joke, but there's a kernel of truth that
makes it so funny. What's even funnier is how upset they make some
people, who can't come up with any better arguments against Lisp than
"too many parenthesis".
The problem is I am not homophobic. I thought your comments were a joke.
The other thing is I have never associated someone have a Lisp or any
form of speech impediment with them being homosexual. I think you'd
have to be pretty weird to make such an association. Camp behaviour
often associated with some gay men has nothing to do with Lisping
speech, nothing whatsoever.
Are you saying that with a straight face, or is that a joke? What
planet have you been living on? Have you ever watched American
television? I'm talking about widely held stereotypes, not the actual
behavior of all real gay people.
"A gay lisp is actually not a lisp but refers to stereotypical speech
attributes assigned to and sometimes heard in gay males. These
attributes have proven difficult to define and quantify but seem
independent of other variables in the phonology of the English
language, such as accent and register."
I don't think about "the why" of the names of any computer languages,
just as I don't think about "the why" the names of my friends or cars
or trees etc. They are just names, some has historical reasons. But
to think about the name and then place some weird prejudice based on
sexuality onto something totally unrelated to sex is, frankly, odd.
Would you really name a programming language after the Dutch word for
"prick", if you knew that was what it meant? Trying to separate human
psychology from programming language design is quite odd! Programmers
are users of programming languages, so programming language design is
user interface design, which has a whole lot to do with psychology. If
you had come up with some valid criticisms of Lisp, I wouldn't have
brought up homophobia and cognitive dissonance. But you trotted out
that tired old "too many parenthesis" argument on your own.
Using the rationale I think you are promoting, C++ must be some sort
of macho language. Not only does it have a penis but its double the
length. Does this then imply that the C language is feminine? Sorry,
but that is rot.
Lots of people use Perl and C++ in a way they think makes them macho.
In the words of the brilliant programmer Ian Bicking:
"It amazes me that Perl programmers complain about Lisp's parenthesis,
then they go write programs that look like line noise, on purpose.
Some actually savor Perl syntax, thinking it makes them more manly.
It's like voting for Bush because he puts on a macho act, even though
you know that his policies are horrible and he's a liar."
I don't have a knee jerk reaction to Lisp. Knee jerk implies sudden
reaction, typically to something you have no or little experience of.
Rather than 2 years of "it really shouldn't be this unproductive".
Why were you so unproductive? Maybe it's not the language's fault, but
your own. Did you use punched cards instead of an intelligent text
editor? What were you trying to do with it?
The language has a name. Its a token. The token's value is "Lisp".
The value of that token has no relation to what experiences I have
had with that language about 20 years ago. The idea that it does is
nonesense. If that was true I'd never have tried Python because its
the name of dangerous snake. Heaven knows how the "Shark" language
will fair, if it ever is created.
People don't have cognitive dissonance about snakes and sharks as much
as they have it about homosexuality. People usually acknowledge their
fears of snakes and sharks, and those fears are actually justified.
Cognitive dissonance means that you are in a state of denial, the same
way a closeted homosexual like Larry "Wide Stance" Craig is in denial
and does not consciously realize that he's gay, even though he can
consciously remember repeatedly having sex with men in airport bathrooms.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that you can convince
me that my experiences were wrong with some weird theory that relies
on me being a homophobe.
You were probably just brought up in a homophobic culture, and many
people internalize it without realizing it. Or do you deny that the
culture you were brought up in is homophobic? What culture was that,
the Netherlands maybe?
I'm not suffering from Cognitive dissonance on this issue. I'm quite
prepared to accept that other people use Lisp and find it OK. That
doesn't affect in any way whatsoever my experience with it. Its like
saying because you like Coffee I should too, when I know for a fact
that Coffee is disgusting. Life isn't like that and neither is
Well if you're not homophobic, then why are you spreading FUD about
Lisp? The "too many parenthesis" argument is ridiculous!
Yay, let's all use lualist to discuss lisp!
Btw, associating programming languages to sexual preference makes me
gay.. (look that up too..)