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- Subject: Re: popen read and write?
- From: Edgar Toernig <froese@<a href="/cgi-bin/echo.cgi?gmx.de">...</a>>
- Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 07:06:09 +0200
Michal Kolodziejczyk wrote:
> I can see that popen() can be used either to read or to write data
> from/to the process. Is there any hope it would be able to read and
> write data at the same time?
> How do you use lua when trying do write and read to/from the same
> process? (under linux if this matters)
This question comes up again and again and there are always
people who show how easy it is to implement it.
Unfortunately, nobody yet has told about the problems that
such a bidirectional popen (let's call it popen2) has.
There's is a very good reason why such a popen2 isn't part of
the POSIX standard: it's _very_very_hard_ to use it correctly.
(I would even go as far as saying that it's impossible to
get right with stdio.) The trivial cases seems to work well
but real work results in a deadlock.
Just take the most simple filter: cat. It echos everything it
reads from stdin to stdout. Let's assume our popen2 uses a
single file handle for reading and writing (using two handles
doesn't really change the problems) and that it's using stdio
(that gives even more problems but still doesn't change the
You think this sequence is ok?
fp = popen2("cat")
x = fp:read("*a")
No, it's broken - not even this trivial example works.
It hangs. Why? Because fp is buffered - you need to
flush the output buffer otherwise "cat" gets nothing
to echo back to your read().
Ok, let's add a flush:
x = fp:read("*a")
Heck, still no go. It hangs in read again. Still
something wrong. What's going on? Easy, cat will
not write such a small amount of data (12 chars).
Even if it were in line buffered mode, there's no
\n at the end of "Hello World!". It needs a buffer
full of data (whatever that is) or an EOF to process
the data. So, give it an EOF:
x = fp:read("*a")
Fine. This trivial example works. Kind of. It may work
on your system but not on others. Actually, it will work
on most systems but only because the implicit assumptions
made by that code (namely that about buffer sizes and the
behaviour of "cat") are satisfied on most systems.
To see what's wrong let's shove bigger chunks of data into
x = fp:read("*a")
64k should be big enough to fill all buffers between
the parent and the filter process (the actual value
differs greatly between systems). What happens? The
program hangs again! Why? Because the parent is still
trying to write data to the filter but the filter is no
longer reading the data. It is trying to pass already
processes data back to the parent. Deadlock!
Trying to circumvent the deadlock by guessing proper
chunk sizes is fruitless. Even if you know the buffer
sizes (of the system and that of the used filter!) you
may not know in advance how much data the filter may
produce and you're lost.
There are usually two ways to handle bidirectional
First: use two different processes/tasks/threads, one
for sending data to the filter and one for reading data
from it. Of course, these two processes shouldn't block
each other through an additional communication channel
or the deadlock may come again.
This method is the one usually used for typical filters
in Unix pipes. It works very well and the implementation
gives no big problems. It is used when the reader and
the writer-process are indepent from each other, a simple
Second: use non-blocking file handles together with
select/poll-like system calls to dispatch reading and
writing yourself. That prohibits use of stdio. The
stdio routines are not designed for non-blocking access
and all kind of magic things happen. Even if you think
you can get away with select and blocking I/O (you're
wrong btw) stdio won't play nice with you. You can't
really control when and how stdio performs I/O on the
relevant file pointers and you can bet that it works
differently on a different implementation. You can't
even query if there's still something in the input
This method is prefered when a single app really tries
to communicate with the "filter". You have to implement
your own buffering with overflow and underflow handling,
timeouts etc. A generic implementation for all kind of
"filters" gives a non-trivial API. Probably not easier
than the POSIX non-blocking I/O API.
I didn't test Python's popen2 family of functions but I
bet that they won't pass the "cat" test. The users of
these functions usually ignore the deadlock problem.
They pass tiny packets of data back and forth and hope
that it works. It does, until one of the packets exceeds
some hard to tell size or the filter does something
Reliable bidirectional communication between two processes
isn't trivial. Getting it right is hard. Don't let
people thing it's easy.
Back to the original poster: if possible, redirect one end
of the stream (input or output) to a file. I.e.:
fp = io.popen("foo >/tmp/unique", "w")
fp = io.open("/tmp/unique")
x = read("*a")
If you want to process it further, pipe it into another
fp = io.popen("foo | lua part2.lua", "w")
For reliable bidrectional communication there's nothing
at the moment in Lua and, afaik, none of the present
extension libraries provide enough functionality to
implement it (multiple processes method maybe).
 Regarding hard to tell size: Linux sometime back changed
pipe buffers from a single page sized buffer to something
like 8 page-sized buffers. But each one could be partial-
ly full as every write consumed at least one buffer.
Worst case: a pipe could buffer only 8 bytes if you perform
single byte writes!
 even ssh had this kind of deadlock - too much data on
stderr and noone was reading it - hang.