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- Subject: Re: [OT] 8-bit machines (was: double vs float vs int)
- From: Asko Kauppi <asko.kauppi@...>
- Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:08:46 +0200
Did you notice this (via OSNews):?
11.12.2004 kello 18:36, David Given kirjoitti:
Jay Carlson wrote:
Knowing what we know now about language design, user interfaces, and
extensibility, what kind of programming environment would we create
for the 8-bit microcomputers?
Way off topic, but this is something I've often thought about. I do
actually own an NC200, a Z80-based laptop with 128kB of RAM, a 1MB
solid-state disc and a 720kB floppy drive; it runs a proprietry OS,
but I keep wondering about writing my own modern OS on it. It would
make an ideal test-bed, and would be perfect for teaching embedded
systems programming. Alas, I doubt Lua would run on it.
Incidentally, there will *always* be a market for 8-bit micros. They
just get smaller and cheaper as time passes. You tend to find them in
places where you wouldn't expect to find computers: digital watches,
clocks, remote controls, anything that might need to watch inputs and
control an output. These days, rather than designing a logic circuit
to do the job, it's easier to stamp out an 8-bitter and do it in
software. It won't be long until nanotechnology makes them *really*
(Has the 4004 finally died?)
Scaling down is important. Let's say we have a luxurious 16k of 6502
ROM, and have to do *something* useful in 16k of RAM. (I'm picking
16k because the VIC-20 was sorta hopeless, and you needed about 12k
to use Applesoft.) Oh, and secondary storage may be slow and far
away---don't count on software virtual memory, as the user may only
have a tape drive.
The main thing to do is to determine when speed is more important than
size. Check this out:
It's a 16-bit VM implemented in 300 bytes by Woz himself for the Apple
II, designed to allow easy interleaving of Sweet16 code with native
6502 instructions. It allows you to take the non-speed-critical parts
of your program and shrink them vastly. Not only does this give you
more code and data space, Sweet16 is far easier to write. It's got
sixteen 16-bit registers and most opcodes are one byte.
Before you ask, FORTH is not acceptable, as it's too easy to blow up
But on an 8-bit machine, it's *always* easy to blow up the machine.
Forth is ideal for these devices: it's small (compiled Forth programs
are typically *smaller* than native machine code versions), it's fast,
it's portable, it's scalable, it's easily integrated with native code,
and it's easy to write. (If you have the right mindset. I don't, and
personally, I can't stand it. I tried to teach myself Forth at one
point and I found myself spending all my time fighting the stack
rather than working with it.)
Alas, modern programming languages don't fit these machines well. I
have a C compiler for my Z80 machine which produces foul code. (The
Z80 has no stack-relative addressing mode, and C uses the stack
heavily... sigh.) 6502 C compilers tend to be even worse. What fast,
compiled languages are there for these machines?
[insert interesting .sig here]