RE: Ideas for implementing commercial support for Lua

["Ray Garcia" <rgarcia@...>]

Asko,

Good suggestion on the book idea.  I beleive one is already written.  I'm
may to offer to publish it for them.

I agree on the need for an good IDE, this would make a significant
difference in market perception.  I would suggest a basic IDE similiar to
what comes with Python but then also sell a more complete environment like
what Activestate does.  Activestate give away Python but then sells an IDE
called Komodo.

An similiar approach could be taken with Lua.  They could put out an open
source IDE based on Scintilla and maybe GTK.  This would be both an IDE and
an example of an application built in Lua.  The commercial product could be
built as a plug-in to the Eclipse framework which is freely available from
IBM.

Ray

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Asko Kauppi [mailto:Asko.Kauppi@fi.flextronics.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 6:00 AM
> To: 'Ray Garcia'
> Cc: 'lua-l@tecgraf.puc-rio.br'
> Subject: Re: Ideas for implementing commercial support for Lua
>
>
>
> I'm having a similar situation to yours, being delighted by Lua as a
> language but facing a psychological barrier for using it in
> "real" projects.
> What I've asked the Lua people to do is at least to get the book out and
> into the Amazon. :) That gives some more 'prestige' or 'maturity' to the
> language, at least in the eyes of the non-devotees.
>
> My primary wish from a commercial support house would be to have a clean,
> nice, preferably Win32/Linux/OS-X multiplatform IDE. Currently, all of the
> IDEs I've seen are smallish and sort-of functioning. None of them
> have been
> great.
>
> Keeping thumbs up for your suggestion, and following it...
>
> - Asko Kauppi
>   Flextronics Finland
>
> --
> Flextronics Design Finland
> Box 23, 39201 Kyröskoski, Finland
> +358 205 345 251 phone
> +358 205 345 332 fax
> www.flextronics.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Ray Garcia [SMTP:rgarcia@alterwork.com]
> > Sent:	Wednesday, November 13, 2002 6:05 AM
> > To:	Multiple recipients of list
> > Subject:	Ideas for implementing commercial support for Lua
> >
> > > From: Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo [mailto:lhf@tecgraf.puc-rio.br]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 6:44 AM
> > > To: rgarcia@alterwork.com
> > > Subject: Re: survey
> > >
> > > What do you mean by "commercial support"? Other people have said
> > something
> > > similar and we're trying to understand how this could be implemented.
> > >
> > > Thanks again.
> > > --lhf
> >
> >
> > Suggestions from Ray Garcia:
> >
> > On the topic of commercial support: probably the best model to
> look at is
> > Linux, either Redhat, Suse, Mandrake or Turbo Linux.  These vendors sell
> > packaging and support for Linux while remaining totally open source.
> > Similiar example with support for MySQL or Postgres.  In the Java
> > community
> > probably Jboss.org is an other model to look at.
> >
> > One can either simply download open source software and struggle with
> > getting it running or they can pay a small fee and get a fully
> tested and
> > installable package.  If one needs to do something other than the basic
> > installation then they could buy into a support program that
> lets them get
> > questions answered in a timely manner.  In the cases where someone needs
> > to
> > do something novel they have a source of developers they could potential
> > contract to customize the open source implementation.  I
> beleive that this
> > somewhat describes the maturing of the open source movement and gives a
> > balance between open flexibility and sustaining the cost of on-going
> > development.  When open source is left only to volunteer
> efforts of a few
> > people it presents a risk to any business who has the desire to
> adopt the
> > open source solution but does not want to find itself without
> support when
> > defects are found or new releases as technology advances.  Of
> course with
> > patience it is possible to solve many issues when adopting open
> source by
> > asking for help from volunteers, unfortunately most business
> can't afford
> > to
> > depend on this and need something more definate.
> >
> > This is somewhat dealing with market perception more than reality in the
> > case of Lua.  For example; if one was to perceive that Lua
> development and
> > future releases had a commercial incentive then it would be more likely
> > that
> > the language would be supported in the future.  The perception now (I my
> > opinion) is that Lua is a powerful scripting language with
> academic appeal
> > and of interest to the technically gifted and curious.  I recognize that
> > the
> > reality is that Lua is actively supported and that if one
> needed help I'm
> > sure one would be able to find a volunteer to answer questions.
> >
> > While the approach the Lua community is taking today leaves opportunity
> > for
> > a wide variety of uses for Lua it limits the adoption to those
> who wish to
> > make Lua part of an existing effort.  Lua has the benefit of
> being small,
> > simple and fast but lacks the builtin libraries that might make it
> > generally
> > usefull to a broad range of uses.  Each person needs to start
> with a small
> > Lua core and integrate it with whatever they deem necessary.  This is
> > somewhat a philosophical position that I think the Lua
> community has taken
> > intentionally.  In contrast Python can be small as well but it
> has a large
> > set of standard libraries that one could use immediately.  If
> one needs a
> > small version of Python its easy enough to strip away what is
> not needed.
> > Therefore it all depends on where the Lua community assumes the use for
> > Lua
> > will be.  Today the assumption seems to be that it is not
> general purpose
> > and omits the large standard library approach.  My suggestion
> is that Lua
> > should come with an optional large standard library.
> >
> > I beleive that Lua may be very close to being a viable option
> for not just
> > Python but other emerging languages as well.  For example; I looked at
> > Yindo.com, which is based on Lua and is probably the most
> powerful script
> > technology for the internet around, I was able to execute the complex
> > demos
> > in just a few minutes.  Each of these demos are just a few
> lines of code.
> > In contrast if one was to attempt the exact same demos using ActiveX, a
> > Java
> > applet, or Flash the download time alone would be so long as to not make
> > it
> > practical.  Looking at Curl.com you'll see another example of a failed
> > strategy, to run the demo's requires a 12meg download and installation
> > process.  IBM research has put out Sash Weblications which
> again requires
> > lots of downloads and setup and runs slowly.  A good example of
> what Yindo
> > and Lua could easily compete with is Rebol.com.  Rebol approach to the
> > internet is very lean and powerful with a language that is simple,
> > flexible,
> > and lightweight.
> >
> > Aside from the support question I raise above I beleive that if the Lua
> > community took on the effort of adopting a standard library
> that included
> > all of something like what Yindo attempted it would position the Lua
> > effort
> > as a direct alternative to Python, Ruby and other scripting languages.
> >
> > You may be asking, "well if he thinks that Yindo is the way to
> go then why
> > not just use it and leave Lua the way it is", this basically
> goes back to
> > the support and commercial issues.  The Yindo effort was three guys, all
> > of
> > whom seem to have moved on to other projects and do not
> maintaining Yindo
> > anymore.  One of the Yindo founders has even started to create
> yet another
> > scripting language.  Same for several of the Lua projects I have asked
> > about
> > over the internet.  Nearly all of them were great ideas started by a
> > single
> > person who only periodically supported the Lua project they started or
> > have
> > completely stopped the effort.
> >
> > I want to consider using Lua for a commercial project but for now I'll
> > only
> > look at it as another very cool scripting language to program
> in for fun.
> >
> >
> >
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